Alpha211
Ashigaru
posted 02-27-12 11:42 AM EDT (US)
Hi, i know quite a bit about the spartans and their military but one thing intrigues me
I know the official story features Sparta falling around the late 300 AD by the visigoths & a slavic migration featured but does anyone know any more
Was Sparta still operating at the time of their fall like they did in the BC years?
was there a battle involved?
Did they fight with a spartan army or did they neglect the past & become no more than a poorly equipped citizen militia?
I would really appreciate more details on this subject (links too)
Thanks alot,
Vasta
Ashigaru
posted 02-28-12 01:15 AM
EDT (US)
2 / 19
Pretty much spot on. The eugenics aspect might be a bit over-emphasized, though certainly had a lot to do with it. Sparta wasn't really designed to maintain hegemony over Greece and Athens bounced back very quickly after the Peloponnesian War. When the Thebans defeated Sparta, and then helped the helots revolt, Sparta was finished - much of Spartan power relied upon their myth, and once that had been diminished, obscurity took over.
Notably, Alexander didn't even ask the Spartans to come along with him to Persia, and the monument for Granicus said something along the lines of "won by Alexander and the Greek allies, except Sparta."
During the Imperial Roman period, Sparta did enjoy a bit of a resurgence as a tourist trap, complete with a real life agoge to watch for Roman governors and dignitaries.
Alpha211
Ashigaru
posted 02-28-12 11:58 AM
EDT (US)
3 / 19
Thanks a lot for that
You two have really helped.
Its nice to know the specifics of how Sparta declined after the Peloponnesian war.
Would you know if it was correct that after the romans occupied the Spartan area (would Laconia be correct) that the army recruited a small contingent of Spartans for their legendary myths? (I hear they were quite disappointed)
Just one more thing, didn't a small Spartan militia force clash with the Visigoths outside Sparta before they plundered and destroyed the city?
(Thanks for the additonal help)
ShieldWall
Ashigaru
posted 02-28-12 12:27 PM
EDT (US)
4 / 19
I did hear that at the time of Thermopylae and Plataea there were as many as 10,000 Spartiates, but by the time of Leuctra there were just 1,000 and quite a lot less after it of course. As Terikel said, the exclusive nature of their recruitment was the cause of their eventual defeat. They didn't have enough men to afford any losses.
In the Roman era, Augustus visited Sparta to pay homage to what he saw as the warrior code that they had inspired in Rome. And yes they then sat out their days in I guess a degree of humiliation, existing for the entertainment of Roman tourists. I can only imagine that they were a very pale imitation of what they had been in the 5th Century BC.
Alpha211
Ashigaru
posted 03-04-12 02:25 AM
EDT (US)
5 / 19
Thanks for that Shieldwall,
Appeciated,
Good to know what happened to the Spartans in the Roman era
Alpha211
Ashigaru
posted 03-13-12 03:28 PM
EDT (US)
7 / 19
Thanks Ecthelion
Even if "half - assed" Its a good piece of information
Thebes military being responsible has been a great help
ShieldWall
Ashigaru
posted 03-15-12 05:51 AM
EDT (US)
10 / 19
300 does seem to have influenced people somewhat. I found the film entertaining, even though it was, well, well it's gay porn isn't it? Gloriously over the top.
Anyway since then there have certainly been a lot of people talking about Spartans, specifically 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, forgetting that they had nearly a thousand helots with them, and a few thousand more allies from around the Peleponnese. So not so much the 300 as the 3000. And then there's those from elsewhere in Greece which about doubles the total. Suddenly the presence of 300 Spartans seems to look like quite a minor part of the Battle. Also most people forget that the Thebans and Thespians stopped with them after the others withdrew and also fought to the death. The Spartans were superb soldiers, but other people were there too.
Cancer of the Head
Ashigaru
(id: say1988)
posted 03-15-12 04:55 PM
EDT (US)
13 / 19
There are some arguments that the Thebans were there as hostages from the start, but I am pretty sure the Thespians were there voluntarily until the end.
The one I like more, though is the people that argue that the battles saved the entire world from being dominated by evil Persian tyrants forever.
Of course the fact is that the battle didn't actually matter. Athens was, much of Greece was occupied and Greek Army and Naval victories had nothing to do with anything from the battle.