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Total War: Shogun 2 Heaven » Forums » Total War History » The Quick Question Thread
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Topic Subject:The Quick Question Thread
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Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 01-23-07 09:42 AM EDT (US)         
I decided we needed one of these.

The purpose of this thread is for little questions that have objective answers, and don't merit their own thread. For example, a good question you might ask here is "Who was the emperor who built the Colosseum?" or "Where can I find a description of the Battle of Alesia?". You can also use this if you are having trouble finding previous discussions in this forum. For example, you might ask "Where can I find a detailed description of the mechanics of a corpse bridge?", which would receive an answer.

This thread is not for introducing discussion topics. You do not ask "So, who was better. Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great?". Think of it as the AH equivalent of the Roman Party thread but do not spam.

If your query starts to get replies beyond two or three posts, then consider starting a specific thread if it looks set to run. If it gets to six or seven posts, start a specific thread on it.

This forum has needed this for a while. Please obey the rules.


"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry

[This message has been edited by Legio Yow (edited 01-23-2007 @ 05:15 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Cordyceps
Naphal
(id: ArchDruid)
posted 08-09-07 11:17 PM EDT (US)     101 / 188       
Porphyrogenitus will probably provide a better answer...
Extensive detail.
I must be the next Nostradamus...

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
dsmi1
Ashigaru
posted 08-10-07 04:18 AM EDT (US)     102 / 188       
I appreciate replies from the both of you.

First Arch. It did feel rather heavily biased, although I had yet to find another decent source to compare it to. The things I found all lead to similar conclusions, and didnt make him out to be as bad as the book suggests. Good to get some confirmation on that.

And Porphyrogenitus that sounds like a very viable situation. Ill have to reread the plague sections and get a better understanding of how he 'saw' it.

One thing that bothered me was how he treated what seemed like a very important asset, Belisarius. Even though Procopius campaigned with him, he still gave Belisarius some bad comments during the text (again have to double check the references). Belisarius may not stack up against the greatest generals in the list in the other thread in this section of the forum, but it seemed like he had success in a fairly serious period of barbarian raiding.
Porphyrogenitus
Ashigaru
posted 08-10-07 03:47 PM EDT (US)     103 / 188       
I have to credit Warren Treadgold for the in-depth research into finances, troop and population numbers, etc. as well as the first proposal (that I know of) of the "plague ruined everything" hypothesis. Check out his history of Byzantine state and society, it's well worth reading.

0 Lord, save thy people and bless thine inheritance:
To our Rulers grant victories over the barbarians,
And by thy Cross protect thine own Estate.

- Prayer on the Feast of the Elevation of the Cross (September 14), established by Heraclius, Basileus (610-41), after recovering the True Cross from its captivity by the Persians and the utter defeat of the Sassanians by Roman arms.

dsmi1
Ashigaru
posted 08-10-07 11:02 PM EDT (US)     104 / 188       
That would be his concise history yes? It is a shame to say I cannot afford any of the copies nearby. There is a good used book store not too far from home which might have it. One website was trying to sell it for 70$AUD which compared to 31$ elsewhere is a laugh. Thanks for the pointer though ill keep it in mind when I get some more work.
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 08-31-07 06:32 PM EDT (US)     105 / 188       
Ari Thorgilsson the learned wrote serious histories of Iceland and Norway around 1100 in the vernacular. Do any serious, European, vernacular histories predate his, or does Iceland have another notch in their literary belt?

Just something I'm curious about.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
Cordyceps
Naphal
(id: ArchDruid)
posted 08-31-07 06:37 PM EDT (US)     106 / 188       
In western Europe there's the venerable Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, written prior to 731, as well as Gregory of Tours' History of the Franks written in the 500's if I recall correctly.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 08-31-07 06:58 PM EDT (US)     107 / 188       
Both were written in Latin.

EDITed to make me sound like less of an asshole (Although I liked the sentence construction of the previous version).

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry

[This message has been edited by Legio Yow (edited 08-31-2007 @ 06:59 PM).]

Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 09-01-07 04:41 AM EDT (US)     108 / 188       
In about 1170 Henric van Veldeke wrote a Vita of St Servatius in the vernacular; he also wrote the Eneïde, a middle Dutch version of Vergil's Aeneis. While these are not history texts persé (though a Vita could definitely qualify as one) he was one of the first known vernacular writers within the HRE, and seen as an example also by many later German writer (such as Wolfram von Eschenbach). Non mythical/legendary histories were not written in the vernacular typically until after 1250. Some countries were also slow to have normal literature written in the vernacular, particularly English, which only managed to become a court language after 1350, and even then to a fairly limited extent.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Chalupa Batman
Centurion
(id: ccsantos)
posted 09-01-07 04:44 AM EDT (US)     109 / 188       
Hooray! My Saladin article now has relevance to the TW games!

As-Salaam-Alaikum
Cordyceps
Naphal
(id: ArchDruid)
posted 09-01-07 04:48 AM EDT (US)     110 / 188       
Both were written in Latin.
My mistake - for some reason I missed 'vernacular' even though it's in your post a few times. Sorry.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
ODST27
Ashigaru
posted 09-03-07 00:49 AM EDT (US)     111 / 188       
Does anyone know where I can get maps of the Rome Total Realism area (Europe, North Africa, Asia minor) that show the different empires during a specific time.
ie.) A map of the area in the year 332 BC would show Alexander the Great's empire, along with the ones in Western Europe.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here.
Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 09-03-07 11:52 AM EDT (US)     112 / 188       
I know the Iberians in the time of Sertorius used guerilla tactics with success but are there earlier successful examples?

-Love Gaius
TWH Seraph, TWH Grand Zinquisitor & Crazy Gaius the Banstick Kid

Got news regarding Total War games that should be publicised? Then email m2twnews@heavengames.com. My blog.
Nelson was the typical Englishman: hot-headed, impetuous, unreliable, passionate, emotional & boisterous. Wellington was the typical Irishman: cold, reserved, calculating, unsentimental & ruthless" - George Bernard Shaw
Vote for McCain...he's not dead just yet! - HP Lovesauce

Cordyceps
Naphal
(id: ArchDruid)
posted 09-03-07 12:20 PM EDT (US)     113 / 188       
The Numidians in the Jugurthine War used a sort of desert form of guerilla tactics, but the difference in terrain likely necessitates a category all it's own.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 09-03-07 12:32 PM EDT (US)     114 / 188       
In about 1170 Henric van Veldeke wrote a Vita of St Servatius in the vernacular...Some countries were also slow to have normal literature written in the vernacular, particularly English, which only managed to become a court language after 1350, and even then to a fairly limited extent.
Well, that's still after Ari, but not by much. Iceland never really had a major period of Latin writing, probably because there wasn't a nobility in the Continental sense.
I know the Iberians in the time of Sertorius used guerilla tactics with success but are there earlier successful examples?
I think Alexander faced some hard guerilla fighting.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
D Furius Venator
HG Alumnus
posted 09-03-07 12:51 PM EDT (US)     115 / 188       
Bloodswan - Your first article is up but there is a tachnical problem relating to my incompetence - sorry. It's on the site ut for some reason the 'Historical Figures' page link doesn't bring up the article. I've promised Gaius that he'll have his straightjacket loosened a bit if he can fix it. As soon as he's pointed out the blindingly obvious thing that I've missed, the others (and Yowzers) will be up.

I'm very sorry for the delay.

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
MisplacedPope
Ashigaru
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 09-03-07 02:28 PM EDT (US)     116 / 188       
Plenty, the Iberians always practiced it, you have the Aetolians even during the Peloponnesian War practiced a form of it, etc.

It depends if you consider military strategy based upon raiding and ambushing as guerilla.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
bloodswan
The Shaman
posted 09-03-07 08:40 PM EDT (US)     117 / 188       
No worries. When the Korean one goes up I'll show my girlfriend hehe.

In war wolves are smarter than men. We Mongols learned from them how to hunt, how to encircle, even how to fight a war. There are no wolf packs where you Chinese live, so you haven't learnt how to fight a war. You can't win a war just because you have lots of land and people. No, it depends on whether you're a wolf or a sheep.
Chalupa Batman
Centurion
(id: ccsantos)
posted 09-04-07 02:52 AM EDT (US)     118 / 188       
Could anyone move my thread into this History forum from the War Story forum?

1512 Peasant Revolt. Please.

Thank you.

As-Salaam-Alaikum
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 10-23-07 07:45 PM EDT (US)     119 / 188       
I was looking back at the Sagas, and I noticed that not a single Icelander is named Harald. Then I looked at some other sources and noticed that practically the only Norwegians named Harald are either kings, or earls.

So, my question is this: Would some names in the Middle Ages be considered "royal"?

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 10-24-07 06:48 AM EDT (US)     120 / 188       
Well, apart from the baptising register, there was no registration of new names to the government/central administration, so there was no control whatsoever about the names normal people used. Royalty usually picked names with great care, however, choosing names that had a meaning and was meant to inspire the leader to be like his name (for example, my second name is Hildebrand = old Germanic for battle sword). Similarly a name might be fouled (like Richard after Richard III) and thereafter be shunned.

Iceland may be an exception but it would be odd. Perhaps the Icelandic people just didn't like the name Harald (can't blame them tbh).

For example in my own studies of medieval Maastricht I've come across so many people named a variant of Jan (Johannes, Janne, Johan, etc) that there'd be enough to form a small army, but I've met only one Godenoel. Which is odd as Godenoel is an awesome name and Jan is so-so. But that doesn't mean that no one was allowed to be called Godenoel apart from the lord of Elderen (the name of which was later changed into Genoelselderen, from Godenoel's Elderen, to indicate how incredibly awesome Godenoel was).

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 10-24-07 07:59 PM EDT (US)     121 / 188       
OK, that answers my question.

Incidentally, you have given me the idea of what to name my first born.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 11-18-07 01:29 PM EDT (US)     122 / 188       
Does anybody know where I can find the estimated population of various mediaeval nations?

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
the spartan pro
Ashigaru
posted 12-23-07 05:59 PM EDT (US)     123 / 188       
While I started playing my fist Medival Total war 2 campaings, I noticed that the Germanic nation was called "The Holy Roman Empire". So I really started wondering wether or not it was really called that?

Sorry for my grammar by the way, for me it feels wrong, but i cant find a more suitable way to word my question.
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 12-23-07 06:53 PM EDT (US)     124 / 188       
There was no Germany until the 19th century, when first the German Toll Association was founded, sort of like the European Union - ie, economic in principle - except for German states, and then Prussia basically forced the other German states minus Austria into a union.

The medieval state known as the Holy Roman Empire or the Holy Empire (Sacrum Imperium) was one of two surviving successors of Charlemagne's 8th century empire. It inherited Charlemagne's imperial crown, and hence the title of Emperor, while the other successor had a more stable future and turned into France. The Empire initially was centred on north-west Germany, the area known as Lower Saxony, but the emperors themselves never managed to gain enough authority to create a powerful state; the vassals held greater political power than in other countries, and basically were independent rulers. The principal powers within the empire during the late middle ages were the King of Bohemia, the archbishops of Cologne and Trier, and the dukes of Bavaria and Austria.
Before the 12th century the emperors still had a chance to get their country back on track, but the numerous and costly wars and other over-expenditure during the reign of Barbarossa, followed by a civil war and the reign of Frederick II, who granted the dukes and bishops greather authority, cemented the power of the vassals and undermined the imperial dignity. After that an emperor only had as much power and authority as his ancestral lands would allow him.

Note that the emperors were typically voted into office after an election between the powerful magnates of the country and was not inherited.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
MisplacedPope
Ashigaru
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 12-23-07 07:47 PM EDT (US)     125 / 188       
To clear up a little the origin of the Holy Roman Empire, it was granted as a title to Charlemagne (in 800 AD, if I remember correctly) by Pope Leo III, which was basically designating him "protector" of Rome and such.

After 911, the last of Charlemagne's descendants died, leaving the HRE to be reborn, more or less, by Otto the Great.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/HRR_10Jh.jpg

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 12-23-07 10:33 PM EDT (US)     126 / 188       
Also: The origins of Big Chuck's empire dates back to Clovis I at the fall of the Western Roman Empire. His conversion to Roman Catholicism is, to my mind, one of the most important events in early medieval history that you won't hear about.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 12-24-07 04:47 AM EDT (US)     127 / 188       
His conversion to Roman Catholicism is, to my mind, one of the most important events in early medieval history that you won't hear about.
Agreed. Though we do hear about it. I mean, it's not as known as, say, Caesar's assassination, but it's present in any history book of note and we spent half a lecture on this subject alone as well as being a relatively frequent subject in popular all time history books. But then again, part of our country was part of Clovis' initial kingdom, so we have heritage ties connecting, too.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
MisplacedPope
Ashigaru
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 12-24-07 09:42 AM EDT (US)     128 / 188       
That entire period of history is generally generalized in an American history classroom (for Highschool, at least) and then we move on. Sad, really.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 12-30-07 05:27 PM EDT (US)     129 / 188       
Considering that American children are expected to know both European and American history in depth, it is forgivable that it is only mentioned.

Regardless, question: would notions of, for lack of a better word, the "personality" of weapons been around in the middle ages? For example, would a sword be thought of as noble, while an axe is barbaric?

It would help with a certain bit of literary analysis I've been working out.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
MisplacedPope
Ashigaru
(id: misplacedgeneral)
posted 12-30-07 05:31 PM EDT (US)     130 / 188       
I'd think that swords were seen as signs of nobility (Knighting ceremonies and such) but as regards to other weapons, not a clue.

The crossbow and pike might have been seen as peasant weapons.

"It's not true. Some have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." Jack Nicholson
Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 12-30-07 05:41 PM EDT (US)     131 / 188       
I thought it might be due to cost but swords were available cheaply. What might be a factor is the amount of skill required to use the weapon. Training was required to be able to wield a sword effectively but pikes, crossbows & perhaps axes did not.

-Love Gaius
TWH Seraph, TWH Grand Zinquisitor & Crazy Gaius the Banstick Kid

Got news regarding Total War games that should be publicised? Then email m2twnews@heavengames.com. My blog.
Nelson was the typical Englishman: hot-headed, impetuous, unreliable, passionate, emotional & boisterous. Wellington was the typical Irishman: cold, reserved, calculating, unsentimental & ruthless" - George Bernard Shaw
Vote for McCain...he's not dead just yet! - HP Lovesauce

Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 12-30-07 06:02 PM EDT (US)     132 / 188       
A falchion would have been a less noble sword, but typically, while weapons would have had some kind of identity, it wasn't necessarily - apart from obvious exceptions - a poor/rich divide. Polearms were typical for urban troops, crossbows too, as well as for mercenaries. The crossbow especially was seen as a dishonourable weapon, and so was the longbow, later on. Nevertheless, the urban patricians preferred to use swords and ride horses like the nobility. And the clergy often used maces and the like (because swords were forbidden).
Cannons were not seen as dishonourable (contrary to popular belief) but were used by both nobles and cities. These had more character than any other weapon and not only got a unique name (like the Mons Meg in Edinburgh or the Dulle Griet or Mad Gretl in Ghent) but were also often painted with a figure of some kind and/or a motto.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
dudeirock33
Ashigaru
posted 02-09-08 11:48 PM EDT (US)     133 / 188       
How many crusades there were? I have read that there were 7:
1. the Peoples Crusade
2. 1st Crusade
3. 2nd crusade
4. 3rd Crusade
5. 4th Crusade
6. Childrens crusade
7. ???

Does anyone know how many crusades there were and when they took place?
Cordyceps
Naphal
(id: ArchDruid)
posted 02-10-08 00:38 AM EDT (US)     134 / 188       
Depending how you define 'Crusade', there were up to 14 of them.

Just as some bodies, from the moment of birth, are endowed with beauty, while on others nature from their very beginning bestows blemishes and wrinkles, so with souls too, some are distinguished at once with extreme grace and attractiveness, while others leave a trail of sombre and deep gloom. ~Michael Psellus, Chronographia
dudeirock33
Ashigaru
posted 02-10-08 01:56 AM EDT (US)     135 / 188       
When I said crusade I meant the crusades in the Holy Land.
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 02-11-08 10:39 AM EDT (US)     136 / 188       
There were numerous small-scale crusades, undertaken by a single ruler, especially in the 13th century. For example, Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empires, Louis IX of France ("Saint Louis"), and Edward I of England all went on crusade, and these were just the royal ones - many less important nobles also went in groups, not necessarily very large.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
The Messenger
Ashigaru
posted 02-23-08 05:37 PM EDT (US)     137 / 188       
I think they were these,
0. The Nepolitian Crusade, (Called and led by Pope St. Alexander, tageted at Islamic Naples)
1. Peter the Hermit's Crusade, (called and led by Peter the Hermit, immediately after the fall of Jerusalem to the Egyptians
2. The Pope sanctioned Peoples' crusade,( basically the same as Peter's crusade, except this time the Pope supported Peter)
3. The Barons' Crusade, (The First Crusade, led by Robert of Normandy, Bohemund of Sicily, Guy of Boilliun, and Reynald of Germany, targeted towards Jerusalem )
4. The Kings' Crusade, (The Second Crusade, First led by Emperor Frederick Barbarossa I, King Phillip of France, and King Richard the Lionheart, called to reclaim Jerusalem)
5. The First Childrens' Crusade, (Led by a unnamed German teenager, ended at Rome, when the Pope sent them home)
6. The Third Crusade, (St. Louis' Crusade into Egypt, he couldn't get to the Holy Lands, so he fought in Egpyt)
7. The Byzantine Crusade, (The 4th Crusade, The Venetian Crusade that sacked Zara, took Constantinople, and ended in the excommunication of Venice, called to take Egypt, obviously they never made it)
8. The Second Childrens' Crusade, (Led by another German teen, marched to Marseille, expecting the sea to divide for them like it did for Moses, it didn't and some traders took them away and made them slaves in Egypt and Nubia)
9.The Teutonic Crusade, (Called by Poland, was targeted toward The Holy Land, but was later revised to go against Lithuania)
10. Other Crusades, like the Re-Conquista,(Called by the States of Spain, ended when King Ferdinand took Granada, almost 300 years after the Re Conquista was called), The Sicilian Crusade, (Called by the Habsburg Emperor of Spain to aid the besieged Knights Hospitaller at Malta against the Turks). Sorry for any mistakes, please correct them

[This message has been edited by The Messenger (edited 02-23-2008 @ 09:29 PM).]

Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 02-25-08 10:31 AM EDT (US)     138 / 188       
A large part of 'Crusade' historians say that religious expeditions not aimed at the Holy Land are not actual crusades. This would discount everything from the Neapolitan crusade to the Cathar crusades to the Baltic crusades. The point is very reasonable, as the motivation to go on crusade to the Holy Land was a different one from just going to repress some pagans or heathens - this is because Jerusalem had a unique position in Christian doctrine, and a crusade was not just a cleansing of the land but also a pilgrimage to the place where Christ gave up his life for the world.

As to the children's crusade, it has been argued, and cogently so, that they were not actually conducted by children but by serfs, the landless and poor. All documents prior to 1300 refer to the children as 'pueri', which, in classical Latin, referred to boys. But not in medieval Latin, where it implied any males without land and/or destitute. Clear references to them as children do not occur until long, long after the event. Mistranslation may be the cause of this.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 02-25-08 05:19 PM EDT (US)     139 / 188       
Kor, do you mean that they are often not considered crusades or not often considered Crusades (note the capitalization)?
Regardless, question: would notions of, for lack of a better word, the "personality" of weapons been around in the middle ages?
I'll elaborate on this question. In Njal's Saga, the first main hero, Gunnar, is a reluctant hero and wields a spear. The second main hero, Skarphedin, is a somewhat barbaric fellow, Viking to his bones, and uses an axe. The third hero, Kari, is a somewhat chivalric hero who reminded me a bit of Romance knights.

So, is it a legitimate point for me to say that Gunnar wields a spear in order to emphasize his desire for peace, Skarphedin wields an axe to emphasize his very Norse nature, while Kari wields a sword to emphasize his somewhat Continental character?

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
D Furius Venator
HG Alumnus
posted 02-25-08 11:40 PM EDT (US)     140 / 188       
Is that true in other Sagas though? Is the spear always the weapon of a 'reluctant fighter' etc.

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 02-25-08 11:52 PM EDT (US)     141 / 188       
I honestly haven't delved into it far enough. After all, it took me three readings to pick up on that possible subtext because the style of writing means symbolism is conveyed with nigh absurd levels of subtlety. In general, more Continental characters tend to be wealthier and better dressed, but that could just be a reflection of a cultural reality.

However, a more general response is that Njal's Saga is fairly unique for a number of reasons, so comparing it with others might be fruitless. Then again, I've only read about a quarter of them, so I may be wrong.

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
D Furius Venator
HG Alumnus
posted 02-25-08 11:56 PM EDT (US)     142 / 188       
As I recall, most of the Sagas feature use of the sword as the main weapon by most characters with the spear and axe being secondary.

In general, more Continental characters tend to be wealthier and better dressed, but that could just be a reflection of a cultural reality.
'Cultural reality' is what I'd put it down to (though mere 'realism' would shurely shuffice?

Civile! Si ergo fortibusis in ero.
Wassis inem causan dux?
Gnossis vile demsis trux!

I suggest that before badgering for a translation you take the time to read it out loud. Thankyou.
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 02-26-08 06:51 AM EDT (US)     143 / 188       
Kor, do you mean that they are often not considered crusades or not often considered Crusades (note the capitalization)?
I'm not entirely sure what difference you're trying to make out here - arguing semantics in a foreign language is not always easy.
But to expand on my argument, there's four schools of thought when it comes to 'Crusades'. I'm afraid I don't have notes at hand here but these are the schools as I remember them:


  • Only campaigns called for by the pope count as crusades (this would include the Albigensian ones but not the Teutonics)
  • Only campaigns to the Holy Land called for by the pope count as crusades (children's crusade and people's crusade would not count, then)
  • All campaigns fought to defend or extend the Christian hold on the Holy Land are crusades
  • All campaigns fought to defend or extend the Christian faith are crusades (this would also include the reconquista and the Baltic ones)

The third school listed here is the leading one. Some scholars include an additional tag there and do not count crusades that set out but did not reach the Holy Land, but then we really are arguing semantics.
In any case, as this list of different scholars' opinions makes clear, there's not one way to count the crusades.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Legio Yow
Ashigaru
posted 02-26-08 05:29 PM EDT (US)     144 / 188       
I'm not entirely sure what difference you're trying to make out here - arguing semantics in a foreign language is not always easy
I can't really describe what I'm driving at here, so I'll try with an example. In the US, we can talk about various civil wars (English etc), but if you capitalize it as Civil war, then you mean the one between the Union and Confederacy. So, basically, the debate would be over who gets "capitalized" status . Does that help explain it?
As I recall, most of the Sagas feature use of the sword as the main weapon by most characters with the spear and axe being secondary.
I generally remember that being visa versa, but my memory is not very reliable here. But Njal's Saga is the only one I have read that might be making a literary point with the weapons.
though mere 'realism' would shurely shuffice?
That's the word I was looking for!

"That which we call a nose can still smell!"
-Reduced Shakespeare Company

"Abroad, French transit workers attempt to end a strike, only to discover that they have forgotten how to operate the trains. Everybody enjoys a hearty laugh and returns to the café." -Dave Barry
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 02-27-08 05:28 AM EDT (US)     145 / 188       
I can't really describe what I'm driving at here, so I'll try with an example. In the US, we can talk about various civil wars (English etc), but if you capitalize it as Civil war, then you mean the one between the Union and Confederacy. So, basically, the debate would be over who gets "capitalized" status . Does that help explain it?
It's not a matter of capitalisation; the stricter schools do not count the other campaigns as crusades at all, but rather simply as military campaigns fought in the name of the faith. They lacked the driving force of the cross itself, which was in the Holy Land.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
The Messenger
Ashigaru
posted 02-27-08 08:45 PM EDT (US)     146 / 188       
Kor,

I'm just counting campaigns as crusades based on the definition and origins of the word "crusade". From what I remember, crusade is a combination of 2 words, "cru" is from the French word "Croix" which means cross, (or the miter used by bishops), and "sade" which means campaign or war. This came so because after Pope Urban II's speech at Clermont, a French noble was said to have put on a patch of the cross on his chest yelling "Croix Sade!", (or something close to it), so crusade literally means "Cross War". All of the campaigns I listed are Wars to expand the faith and spreading the Cross, so I consider them crusades. This might be kind of dusty, so please correct my story if you heard it.
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 02-28-08 09:33 AM EDT (US)     147 / 188       
The Messenger, your anecdote is correct (or at least there's no other story to explain the name and we might as well pick this one). However, there is, as I wanted to show, not one correct way of counting these campaigns. The problem is not necessarily caused by the major expeditions, but rather by the small ones. For example in the thirteenth century, when Louis IX on his own went on crusade three or four times, and other rulers did the same (such as Frederick II and Edward I). However, the unifying drive that had spearheaded the previous crusades had gone; they were by then individual campaigns. Other campaigns, like the Teutonic Crusades and the Reconquista, also in reality consisted of many small expeditions rather than one big one.

Because counting is always difficult for alpha-scientists, they decided, rather than develop a unified way to count them, that they were better equipped to talk about different ways of counting them rather than actually getting out the calculators. Nevertheless, the ways to count them, as I presented earlier, do take into account very reasonable characteristics. Pick the one you feel most comfortable with, which seems to be the pluralist view (all wars fought in the name of the faith are crusades).

However, because the crusades themselves were a continuation of the tradition of pilgrimage to Jerusalem, except this time with sword in hand, I personally find the traditionalist view, that only campaigns aimed at the Holy Land, would count as crusades. All the others can be classified as wars of religion, certainly, but they were not fought merely for that objective (as the Teutonic Crusades showed; they continued after the christianisation of the Lithuanians), and the initial crusade view, to defend christendom, rather than expand it, had been corrupted.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Guy Fawkes
Ashigaru
posted 08-04-08 03:21 AM EDT (US)     148 / 188       
Are there any cases in the Napoleonic Wars of infantry successfully attacking cavalry?

"[President Warren G. Harding's speeches] leave the impression of an army of pompous phrases moving over the landscape in search of an idea; sometimes, these meandering words actually capture a straggling thought, and bear it triumphantly, a prisoner in their midst, until it dies of servitude and over-work." -- William McAdoo
"He cannot be great, who has ceased to be virtuous." -- Dr. Johnson
Kor
Busschof Happertesch
(id: Derfel Cadarn)
posted 08-04-08 06:49 AM EDT (US)     149 / 188       
If you mean it literally, ie infantry attacking cavalry defending a position, I do not know of any such instance. Infantry successfully defending against cavalry attacks occurred very frequently and was generally achieved by resilient troops, but I'm sure you know that.
Cavalry simply were not suit for defensive purposes so they weren't tasked with defending, apart from backing up infantry.

Kor | The Age of Chivalry is upon us!
Wellent ich gugk, so hindert mich / köstlicher ziere sinder,
Der ich e pflag, da für ich sich / Neur kelber, gaiss, böck, rinder,
Und knospot leut, swarz, hässeleich, / Vast rüssig gen dem winder;
Die geben müt als sackwein vich. / Vor angst slach ich mein kinder
Offt hin hinder.
Guy Fawkes
Ashigaru
posted 08-04-08 03:12 PM EDT (US)     150 / 188       
I meant infantry managing to catch the cavalry unawares, and attack them before they managed to charge.

A second question: how does one pronounce Blücher's name? Is it "Bloo-sher", "Bloo-cher", "Bloo-ker", or what?

"[President Warren G. Harding's speeches] leave the impression of an army of pompous phrases moving over the landscape in search of an idea; sometimes, these meandering words actually capture a straggling thought, and bear it triumphantly, a prisoner in their midst, until it dies of servitude and over-work." -- William McAdoo
"He cannot be great, who has ceased to be virtuous." -- Dr. Johnson
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