Total War: Shogun 2 Heaven

I haven't manage to get around to finishing my campagin
but im going well i am playing as the tsu and i have a level 5 ishsi shisi a level five shinobi and two level 3 geshais(the enemy bulidt the buildings then i moved in) i have quite a good army but it needs updating it all matchlocks(which admitalby are now all 6 exp and almost everyone of the bullets hits someone due to aesome acurracy) i have killed the obama(i think) and am going to conduct huge agent arfare agaist everyone so i can become a repuluic(duhduh duh dah) because earlier i found being a vangaaurd and the leader and friend of half of japan meant there was half of japan i could fight and destroy on a side note im really getting good with frist person artillary and usally am able to kill the enemy genral within 2,3 shots

Now that I have finished a campaign as the Imperialists I have now turned my attention to keeping the Shogunate in power for my next campaign. Does anyone have any preferred Shogunate supporting clans they like to play as? I am torn between the Obama, Sendai and Nagaoka at the moment.

I was the Fujiwara in Darthmod's rise of the samurai and have hit upon a winning formula of keeping AI factions alive and weak once you crush them to allow you to build up in relative peace compared to if you just rushed them. My arts were mostly economic-orientated, it was only after I ended up on the wrong side of massed mounted samurai that I did my second research into the military side

But since getting a source of mounted samurai, I can only recruit them in small numbers- I have two units, tops. And they're so bloody useful in an age where there aren't really any horses! Seriously, fire arrows and then engage. It's excellent!

Sadly did not have much luck in my first campaign as the Shogunate supporting Fukuoka clan, who are one of the hardest clans to survive as early on. Made a great start early on but then things went to shreds as Inception invaded Fall of the Samurai. The Shogunate Clans had a civil war within a civil war, leading to them being conquered by the nearby Imperialists clans. Which then meant I was totally overstretched to face an all out multi-directional assault from all my new Imperial neighbors.

I would have been fine had the Shogunate faction not fallen to pieces with infighting as they secured many of my borders quite well for me there while the unity lasted. That just seems to be the luck of the draw though since second time around the Shogunate faction hasn't gone and had a civil war within a civil war.

Such is the joys of playing the Fukuoka clan in Fall of the Samurai, but they make for an interesting campaign. Especially on the harder difficulty levels, as the TW community can attest to.

I've been playing some Fall of the Samurai as the Nagaoka, they strike me as opportunists so as soon as I was given the option I turned on the Shogunate forces and wiped out the Aizu. Declaring independence later, and the proverbial shit has hit the metaphorical fan.

I'm currently playing a campaign as the Otomo Clan. When the campaign difficulty said 'hard' in the description it wasn't kidding, especially since they're already Christian at the start so when I conquer a territory I have to deal with a big religious difference hit as well as resistance to invaders. I managed to gain control of all of Kyushu as well as most of the southern tip of Japan, but I'm literally one castle away from Realm Divide and my chi arts aren't nearly as progressed as I'd like them to be.

Still the campaign has had a fun and fast "constant movement" feel that was definitely eased by my monopolizing of the southern trading nodes. Was thinking of playing either a Shimazu or Takeda clan campaign next as I've never done a campaign with either of them.

Haven't tried the Otomo yet. I'd suggest a Takeda campaign next, a Shimazu campaign will probably play out very similar to the Otomo one.

I shall take your advice and make the the great horsemen of the Takeda my clan in the next campaign. I'd actually just finished a campaign with the Uesugi before I started my Otomo one, so it appears I'm stuck bouncing back and forth between Kyushu and central Japan

Alternatively, what about going Mori? They have an interesting starting position that's not too close to any of the other playable Clans.

They're a pretty solid choice. I usually build 2-4 big fleets for each side of Japan so they're clan bonuses would really ease the financial burden of that.

Incidentally, I was also thinking of playing their historical rivals the Chosokabe because I've only touched Shikoku a grand total of 2 times since Shogun 2 was released and they have a solid position near the heart of Japan once the island's been secured.

My first campaign was on the main game, and I won with the Chosokabe - getting crazily good archers. I was going to play on and conquer all of Japan but I got a bit fed up of the constant stream of small naval battles that caused too many losses (in my opinion) on autoresolve but were tedious on the map.

I've just started a fall of samurai campaign with one of the empire factions (with the same starting position as Chosokabe) - probably an easy one but I wanted to see the 'features'. Naval bombardment seems tricky to use well given the advanced warning given to the enemy troops - does anyone have any suggestions for using it well?

Naval bombardment is insanely devastating when you're attacking a castle. The units are usually packed so tight and close together that you can kill hundreds of men and send their bodies flying with a well-placed barrage. A bit more difficult on a battlefield against a mobile opponent. I usually target the enemy's artillery or general, and it's also great against an enemy that decides turtle and sit on top of the nearest hill.

Decided to do something completely different and started a legendary campaign with the Oda. It's been... intense to say the least, but I'm still alive after 27 turns. Playing it a lot slower than usual since there's only one save and it always gets saved over after a battle so no save-scumming at all. Still, I think it's the most fun I've had with the game since my first month of playing it.

Naval Bombardment is certainly more useful in static battles then fluid ones considering the AI can often move out of the way. Though it still has advantages even in a mobile battles as a form of area denial, or to force your opponent to maneuver his troops out of the way if he is prone to leaving an invitation to attack in the process. Sometimes it can be effective to drop it behind your enemy's troops so they can't go back unless they want to take heavy casualties too.

Though with a bit of skill sometimes you can still land some thunderous hits on your opponent if you position it smartly, or trap them in between a rock and a hard place where maybe getting hit is the best of the bad situation.

DU - Though I've never completed a Chosokabe game, I played up until I took Osaka castle, but was so overextended in a battle with the Shoni in and around Kyushu that my army in the centre of the map had to hold that castle against three consecutive full stacks. The Samurai archers were incredible though and racked up insane volumes of kills.

Never actually completed a FOTS campaign, played a bit with the Saga, then the Tosa, then the Nagaoka. I am awful at the naval battles though. I intend on giving it a go once I'm done with my Taira campaign.

Speaking of which, the Taira are my favourite clan in Rise, playing as the Fukuhara Taira who control Kyoto. I exerted my influence over the nearby clans, vassalised some and secured the central regions whilst my other family branch did the same towards the South-West. Then I get the event that my Daimyo has installed his grandson as Emperor and I get a huge hit to diplomatic relations. Fought loads of tough battles but I've finally re-secured the Imperial provinces in the middle of the map, now pressing into Tokugawa/Oda territory Owari, Mikawa and South Shinano to secure that border against the death stacks of Samurai the Minamoto are throwing at me. I had to betray an ally and back the bigger clan bulling him around to avoid needing to fight in the West sooner than I want.

I actually never played Rise of the Samurai, since I've yet to finish playing as all of the vanilla clans let alone all of the ones in FOTS. Glad to hear the Chosokabe's samurai archers are appropriately devastating

Still engaged with my Legendary Oda campaign. I've managed to avoid being swamped by making the Tokugawa my vassal and concluding a marriage alliance with the Takeda. The Tokugawa have been pretty incredible at securing my eastern flank and they actually managed to destroy the Imagawa. I have to be keep a close eye on them and make sure they don't get powerful enough to rebel. I was at war with the Hatano and Hattori in the West when my Kitagawa allies turned on me. Apparently they really wanted the ninja bonus of the Hattori's home province. I'm currently besieging their capital and attempting to starve them out as I can't afford to take heavy losses storming a castle.

I hadn't really touched Rise until just recently, but am really enjoying it for a change of pace from regular Shogun 2. Hit realm divide now, but my economy is steaming. The revamped farms/markets in Rise operate entirely differently to Shogun 2's so it's a lot easier to keep a good cashflow after the realm divide.

Whereas on Shogun I was frequently into the red after losing all my trade partners, I'm still making 16k a turn profit across only 16 provinces in Rise.

Once I'm done with the Taira I'll probably do Uesugi next (again) because they were my favourite campaign.

I've yet to have a proper naval battle in FOTS - just one so far and that was my gunboat against a significantly larger ship, which didn't go so well. I've just got to copper-clads though and should have a few fights to clear up the waters soon. The satsumas have gone on the rampage, handy as they're on my side. Tosa riflemen are superb it seems - the first time I used a unit in battle we were outnumbered something like 1800 to 1100 - but the one unit of rifles levelled it out by racking up something like 800 or 900 kills.

Do all factions get access to good rifles or was I just lucky with Tosa?

I managed to have quite a few battles in my Choshu campaign, especially once realm divide hit. The deadliest weapon in naval combat in FOTS is without a doubt the torpedo. Once I researched it, I had small torpedo boats taking out ironclads five times their size.

I know there are specific clans that get bonus to accuracy for rifle units, but I can't remember their names. The difference in quality between professional troops and militia is outstanding just as it should be. There was a point near the end of my Choshu campaign where I had armies comprised of imperial infantry, carbine cavalry, 2 artillery pieces and 2 gatling guns and they wiped the floor with the armies of traditional units that the pro-Shogun clans threw against me. The best part was during one siege battle where there were two cliffs overlooking the castle. I moved all of my artillery and gatling guns on the hills and poured the lead down on all all the poor soldiers bunched in the castle. The men who tried to charge out of the gates were immediately shot down by my sharpshooters and imperial guardsmen.

The Nagaoka (Green Pro-Shogun) are the ones with the rifle bonus; +15% to the reload rate. The Tosa riflemen are really good, but the best in the game are the Choshu special unit the Kihetai. Absolutely deadly, the gaudy kill numbers they put up in a siege defence are unreal.

Nothing quite like seeing those Ironclads go boom either , quite the fireworks show.

Loved my Fall of the Samurai campaigns as the Choshu with their -10% discount to the cost of Ishin Shishi actions. Reminds me of the other notable time I went across the map with multiple rank 4+ agents rampaging eastwards across the map coercing Shogunate provinces in to crippling rebellions. Game becomes a bit easier when you deprive your enemies of much of their powerbase. Having a great military to mop up is like having a cherry on top, a very large cherry in the Kihetai's case.

Arguably the Shogunate clans at least seem more challenging then the Imperial clans however, or that's the impression I get from reading the forums and my time playing FotS.

[This message has been edited by Scipii (edited 02-09-2013 @ 08:57 AM).]

With a bit more practice, I think naval bombardment works quite well - having a whole heap of ships so you get a lot of shells and a relatively large radius helps.

I think it's a shame that the AI clans don't trigger the same rules on realm divide etc in this game

I think it's a shame that the AI clans don't trigger the same rules on realm divide etc in this game

This exactly. I played one game as the Hojo where a super alliance of the Shoni and Hatano dominated southern Honshu as well as total control over the islands Kyushu and Shikoku. They were at war with the Shogunate and rampaging all over the central provinces, but neither took a poorly defended Kyoto from the Ashikaga. I did however get a mission from the Shogun to defeat one of their armies, it felt pretty cool rallying to the Shogun's aid for a change, but it would've been epic if they incurred the wrath of all the other clans up north too.

Also, in FoTS it'd be awesome if there was a chance some of the larger clans decided to go Republic. Creating a 3 or 4 way realm divide war.

As for my current campaigns:

I think I've lost my Taira one, because I was too lethargic. Once I controlled the Imperial provinces, I set about making an alliance with the Ito who went on to conquer Kyushu and Shikoku, and the Ochi who controlled everything along the northern coast. Meanwhile I sat around making money and swimming in Koku like Scrooge McDuck. When the realm divide hit the Doi (light blue) conquered Shikoku and raids from there constantly. The Ochi (darker blue) lost most of their territory in the north so I stepped in. I've finished the Minamoto clans after many hard battles, the Samurai are no joke and even though I get a bonus to Naginata troops they still don't stack up. Meanwhile though, the Fujiwara clans put aside their differences and are looking too formidable for me to finish off before the time limit ends. To try and disrupt them I sent two large armies into the northern tip of Honshu, but they've been bogged down fighting endless sieges and suppressing rebellion thanks to having little to no territory loyal to me up there. Its 1200 now, I only have 12 years left to get to 40 provinces! To make matters worse the realm divide penalty is rapidly getting dangerous on my relationship with the light-purple Ito to my rear...


My second playthrough as the Tokugawa. Really fun campaign. On this playthrough the Ouchi, Shoni and Amako were the prime enemies late game, all having converted to Christianity. There were lots and lots of large battles fought as I pressed south into their territory. I had to send a stack down to Kyushu to sack all of their high level castles in order to actually begin gaining enough ground, then let those provinces rebel. Gave my economy a good boost, but everyone hated my Daimyo for it, he also got the 'rude' trait resulting in me having to cull all of my vassals up north. When Ieyasu took over though it was all good.

I know plenty of people have complained about the AI in Civilization V openly playing to win. Since some people would rather the AI offer a narrative, but ultimately hollow, threat (for Let's Play purposes) to their civilization's rise to power. However, personally I have nothing wrong with the AI playing by the same rules and trying to also win militarily, scientifically or culturally.

After all, in Shogun 2 where is the fun in claiming the Shogunate and dominance over Japan if the resistance put forth by the others Clans is purely just to make the narrative behind my rise to power somewhat interesting. Now I'm not saying that is how the Shogun 2 AI operates, however the tension and thrill behind the narrative dissipates for me if the war for the Shogunate happens to be a farce. If the Ashikaga are just keeping the seat warm for me and no one else is able to win then it is not really a war for the Shogunate but rather a story about whether or not I can overcome all the challenges needed to reach the victory conditions. The game's premise of portraying the essence of the Sengoku Jidai would fall apart for me.

No doubt playing the campaign is still fun regardless of whether the narrative behind it is a farce or not since the gameplay is still fun and challenging. However, outside of needing to achieve the victory conditions within a certain time-frame there is no narrative reason for me to hurry, it is not like anyone could win and cut my ambitions and campaign short. There are still gameplay reasons why you might not want to take your time, but nothing that makes you think: "Oh no the Oda are close to winning the campaign I better come up with a plan to stall them quickly."

Personally I cannot say either way whether or not the AI clans in Shogun 2 are attempting to win the campaign since I can only report on my personal experiences. For all I know the AI may well be attempting to play to win and it may just, more often then not, lose momentum somewhere along the line. Since despite seeing hundreds of examples of the AI looking like it does not play to win I have once seen the AI look quite convincingly like it does play to win.

It have only experienced once, but in one special campaign the AI controlled Takeda did keep progressing towards victory without losing momentum like the AI quite often seems to do. The Takeda were on the warpath towards victory that campaign and actually managed to take Kyoto and the Shogunate. It was glorious to see the AI learn the perils of Realm Divide that day. While the Takeda would eventually be brought back to earth by the surviving clans, including me, that day they looked like they could win had they been ready to withstand the intense rigours of Realm Divide.

That campaign has to be the greatest I have ever played for the purposes of suspense and portraying the Sengoku Jidai convincingly. I've still no confirmation if the AI can actually cut short anyone's campaign by meeting the victory conditions like in Rome: Total War, but that day the Takeda were out to scare me that they could, and it was exciting. Shame it would seem to be a once in a lifetime event as I would love for it to happen with more frequency and strengthen my love for playing Shogun 2.

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I were going to comment in depth on your two campaigns Afty but I seem to have written quite the long post as it is. Your Rise of the Samurai campaign looks like it is quite interestingly poised though, and I await its conclusion.

[This message has been edited by Scipii (edited 02-10-2013 @ 02:06 AM).]

If you have a look at the diplomacy screens, factions who swell and appear to be poised for realm divide wind up at war with lots of factions at once, so perhaps they do experience it? I'd like it a lot if they made a move to become Shogun however.

The way the AI expands it is usually over-extended and thus preyed upon once it gets to a certain size, if the Takeda grow large enough in my games this always happens to them. Usually the Oda or Imagawa pick away at them.

Momentum and timing certainly is not kind on the AI clans at times. If in my last (long co-op) campaign we had arrived in Central Honshu later maybe we would have been facing our toughest Shogun 2 challenge ever. The prospect of over half of Japan consolidated under the Takeda banner looking ambitiously towards Kyoto and the Shogunate.

As it were, we arrived at the right moment to face little resistance subduing the Oda's central powerbase as they were embroiled in a war with the Takeda for dominance of the eastern half of Japan. Considering the size of the Oda at that moment anyone could reasonably assume that basically guaranteed victory for us in the end. For as tough as the Takeda were you don't resist two players with two-thirds of Japan under their control who are relentlessly recruiting more and more experienced pure Samurai armies.

Which brings me to an interesting thought, every time the AI has looked like legitimately challenging for the Shogunate my campaigns have progressed at a slower rate then usual. Of course everything has to fall in to place for a particular AI clan for it to happen but time seems to benefit the AI in my campaigns.

No guarantee that an AI clan will become dominant enough to credibly plot an ascension to the Shogunate however, obviously.

[This message has been edited by Scipii (edited 02-12-2013 @ 02:33 AM).]

Hmm, almost makes me want to start a new Shogun 2 campaign and turtle to see if any Clans can capture the Shogunate. Might give it a go when I finish up Taira and Choshu campaigns I have ongoing.

Speaking of which. I lost my aforementioned Taira campaign. I went on a blitz to try and secure the provinces I needed before the time limit ended but I over-extended and the 'other clan loyalty' penalty to public order did me over. I started again though, because it was a blast. Such an under rated DLC. This time I didn't sit around playing nice, I conquered the Central regions and pushed into Tokugawa/Imagawa territory and Southern Shinano as chokepoints to my domain. Sitting pretty at about 14 provinces.

Both Fujiwara Clans declared war on me but did nothing about it for a long time, until the Kubota faction sent a full stack on an invasion fleet into Mikawa Bay, I crushed them with my new Samurai Ships and fire bomb boats, forcing a peace agreement and trade on them whilst they focus on the rather large and powerful Kamakura Minamoto.

Now I'm focusing on my economy, maxing out farms and taxation chains. Disrupting the Pro-Taira Clans and breaking up their alliances and trade agreements with diplomacy in the West, so as they don't grow so strong that they require lots of attention come realm divide. I've even destabilised my sister Taira Clan on Shikoku to the extent they are constantly fighting the Minamoto supporting Kyogoku. The Kiso Minamoto marched a huge army with their Daimyo and Heir on South Shinano to recapture it, but I ambushed them and wiped the stack out completely, they sued for peace in the next turn and for it they broke their alliance with the Kamakura Minamoto in the North. Feel like Ieyasu himself all the strings and plots I've been pulling off

A shame you eventually lost your Rise of the Samurai campaign as the Fukuhara Taira. Great to see you have renewed your ambition for power as the F. Taira however. A sound idea to capture and secure all the choke-points in to Central Honshu from the east since, given enough military investment, it will allow you to focus westwards if you so desire. Well, that or you can potentially bait the enemy in to a slaughter and then proceed to quickly counter-attack them while the advantage is with you.

Which I personally find desirable for when Realm Divide comes about so I am not fighting a multi-front war. After all, the number of armies it takes to offensively and defensively cover each pass through the mountains to your east, until the terrain opens up on to plains again down south, soon mounts up. Personally I had at least one mounted Samurai army in existence in my Yashima Taira campaign purely due to their strategic mobility and tactical versatility.

Obviously that is not the only path to victory, but when the going gets tough the tough start leveraging any advantages in their favour. Tempted to go start a new Rise of the Samurai campaign as the Kiso Minamoto now. and unleash the fury of mounted Samurai alongside the K. Minamoto's favourable bonuses.

I want to play one of the Minamoto clans next, for the Samurai bonuses.

As the Taira have bonuses to the Naginata troops and 'The Old Way' I've tried to construct my armies mostly of that, heavy shock troops being the warrior monks. So I'm only using samurai sparingly for now.

One thing I've noticed though is the sword attendants chop up my Naginata with ease, but for whatever reason when I used sword attendants as a form of protection for my Naginata troops they always suffered awful casualties or outright routed. I've figured out why though, I was using them like Katana Samurai, while in reality they're No-Dachi - powerful in a charge and attacking situation, terrible in a ongoing and long winded close combat.

Naginata Cavalry have been my saviour, getting a bonus when fighting other cavalry is a huge plus when it comes to battlefield assassinations on enemy generals. Plus charging them into the rear of engaged samurai usually breaks them. Have won a couple battles thanks to timely interventions by my mounted troops.

Understandable, since sometimes there is nothing quite like fielding a themed army after all.

Bearing in mind the study I did for my latest Medieval 2 article, I am curious how well Pike and Shot might translate to Shogun 2 using Oda Long Yari Ashigaru and Matchlock Ashigaru. Some Military Historians have theorised that given more time development in Japanese military theorem, after the introduction of gunpowder weaponry, would have mimicked that seen in Western Europe. However, Shogun 2 while set in history is a video game and subject to the whims of gameplay mechanics and balance.

Long Yari Ashigaru can certainly fare quite well as a Pikemen analog with the Spear Wall ability enabled.

Pike and shot would be cool if it worked, especially with the Otomo Tercos. I mostly found gunpowder units useless in open field battles, they only got off one or two volleys before they were caught in melee or needed to be pulled back. On settlement walls though they are awesome. That's why the Tokugawa mounted gunners are one of my favourite units in the game, they pack the punch and morale damage of the gunpowder units, but also can get out of the way or behind an opponent quickly.

My Taira campaign is past the critical mass stage. I've conquered a large portion of territory and practically finished off the Kiso Minamoto. My Koide allies are going to betray me soon I'd guess, which means I'll shore up my defences in the east and focus on expansion to the west where Kyushu and Shikoku are occupied by my enemies and only getting held in check on Honshus' western tip thanks to one of my stacks and the Koide armies.

I've decided I want to do a Hojo campaign next, because I pretty much never have. Then a Choshu Republic playthrough, followed by an Aizu traditional playthrough of FoTS - Which should see me to Rome II's release in October.

Considering the additional length of the Yari involved it shall be useful if they can hide among the hedgehog of sharp pointy bits like in Medieval II. Otherwise the faster paced nature of Shogun II does hinder gunpowder units in open battles a bit, until Fall of the Samurai comes along.

Ah so the time of reckoning is nigh for the Taira, best of luck on the path to glorious victory. Unless you fall on hard times somewhere you should hopefully have it relatively sewn up this time round.

The proposed FotS Aizu campaign should be interesting considering even with some help from CA traditional armies are at a disadvantage in a straight up fight. Should be interesting to see what strategic and tactical maneuver you utilise to overcome that disadvantage when the time comes.